Special Considerations When Teaching Non-Native English Speakers in an Online Environment

Linda Ciano

April 23, 2003, 2200 GMT

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+ Linda has arrived.
< Linda> Hi, tcc_staff!
< tcc_staff> hi
< Linda> Are you here for the chat, or are you just doing a technical check?
< tcc_staff> here to assist you
< Linda> Great!
< tcc_staff> your chat will be logged
< Linda> Okey-dokey...
< Linda> Anything else in particular you think I might need assistance with? (Better to be forewarned...*lol*)
< tcc_staff> Its nice to have a welcome for your guests
< tcc_staff> but otherwise its pretty straightforward
< tcc_staff> technically that is
< tcc_staff> where are you from?
< Linda> Thanks for the tips.
< Linda> I'm here in New York.
< Linda> Are you in Hawaii?
< tcc_staff> yes, on the island of Oahu
< tcc_staff> what part of NY
< Linda> Mmmm...I am *exceedingly* jealous!
< Linda> I work at NYU in Manhattan, but I live in Dutchess County (about 60 miles north of the city).
< Linda> I'm originally from Queens.
< tcc_staff> ohhh, I'm jealous :)
< Linda> LOL You MUST be joking!
< tcc_staff> LOL no, how great to work in the city
< Linda> I'll trade our rain and snow - and the city that goes with it - for your tropical weather and beaches any day.
< tcc_staff> I have to admit, I do love it here
< tcc_staff> but its nice to visit NYC
< Linda> Were you born in Hawaii?
< tcc_staff> yes, born and raised on the island of Kauai
< tcc_staff> my name is Kelli, btw
< Linda> Hi, Kelli. :)
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< Linda> Hi, Lesley!
< Lesley> Hello Linda. Am I too early/late?
< Linda> Neither. :)
< Linda> Welcome - looks like you're the first here.
< Lesley> Goodness - that's not like me!
< Linda> lol
< Linda> Do you teach many international students?
< Lesley> I used to. Now I work in language learning and technology as well as researching pedagogical usability issues around designing e-learning websites.
< Linda> Interesting!
< Linda> Is your language learning specifically ESL related or any language?
< Lesley> French, German and Spanish.
< Lesley> Though I'm actually a educational technologist these days.
< Lesley> *an* educational technologist, that is, of course
< Linda> lol
< Linda> So you must encounter almost the reverse of some of the cultural/linguistic issues that ESL learners encounter in online classes....
< Lesley> Not necessarily.
< Lesley> Not all our learners are based in the same country, so they may be learning the target language mediated through English.
< Linda> An added challenge....
< Lesley> And we only work with distance learners...
< Lesley> How about you?
< Linda> We're much more local, at least for now.
< Linda> Our online program is just getting off the ground and is basically designed for students already in the area but unable to attend f2f classes.
< Linda> Since I teach ESL, all my students are internationals.
< Lesley> I see. And they have various expectation that are/are not met when they arrive?
< Linda> Absolutely. Culturally, linguistically....
< Linda> So, too, do the various departments that they study in.
< Lesley> Mhm.
< Linda> Often both sides have unrealistic expectations.
< Lesley> Do the students receive any orientation/before arrival?
< Linda> I work mostly with grad students. Unfortunately, they don't seem to get too much orientation....
< Lesley> For example, some universities, like Griffith in Australia, have a website designed by international students already in situ for students who are coming.
< Linda> What a great idea!
< Lesley> Isn't it? I thought it was wonderful.
< Linda> Our students seem to find out most of what's happening once they arrive.
< Lesley> I was very impressed.
< Lesley> I think that happens quite a lot, really.
< Lesley> But there must be some way to manage expectations.
< Linda> They are tested for language abilities, etc, upon arrival, and many who think their English is just find discover that they're being advised to take 1 or 2 ESL classes.
< Linda> I think getting students who are in situ to connect with prospective students is one great way of doing just that.
< Linda> In your research do you address these issues?
< Lesley> It does seem to be a good idea, doesn't it? I haven't tried it myself, but it does strike me that it makes a lot of sense.
< Lesley> Not really, though I have a research student who's just starting work on this sort of thing.
< Lesley> In web usability research, we do discuss whether/how to cater for non-native speakers, for example.
< Linda> What are some of the ideas?
< Lesley> But it's quite difficult if you don't have a group of learners with the same aims (ie getting oriented)
< Lesley> Well, I was interested in your paper because you're coming at the challenge from a different angle...
< Linda> I would think that language learners would all have the same basic aim - increased proficiency - though possibly for different practical purposes.
< Linda> A different angle than your research?
< Lesley> Our websites have to cater for native as well as non-native speakers...
< Linda> *nod*
< Lesley> You seem to be talkng about producing pages that are aimed at non-native speakers only
< Linda> That's right.
< Lesley> Is that right?
< Lesley> Ah, ok.
< Linda> In terms of content, our students study what would probably be the equivalent of college-level developmental reading/writing materials.
< Lesley> What stage of development are you with your own websites?
< Linda> Our students may be exceptionally accomplished in their own languages, but often they can't function well in English because of discourse issues (on top of straightforward language issues)....
< Lesley> Mhm.
< Linda> NYU has its own platform (The Virtual College)....
< Lesley> Is that an MLE?
< Linda> 100% online classes go there....
< Linda> And for f2f classes we incorporate Blackboard technology.
< Lesley> How/why do incorporate that technology in f2f?
< Lesley> That's an intereting approach - can you say more about it?
< Linda> What's an MLE? (Like I mentioned earlier, we're just getting started so I'm not up on all the terminology yet....)
< Linda> ;)
< Lesley> Ah, managed learning environment.
< Lesley> A bit like Blackboard etc.
< Linda> But more interactive. It has Centra capability, for example.
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< Linda> Hi, Selia!
< selia> HI LInda
< Lesley> Hi Selia
< selia> Hi Lesley
< Linda> For now, we're only using text-based technologies - no live lectures.
< Lesley> Linda, Blackboard has Wimba capability which is synchronous voice. Have you tried using that?
< Linda> No - since we're using Blackboard with our f2f classes, which already meet twice a week, I don't know if I would.
< Linda> But it's good to know....
< Lesley> Ok. I was asking about how you use Blackboard f2f - and why... Could you say more about that, please?
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< Lesley> OR amybe Selia has some questions or comments about your paper?
< Linda> The college wants every course to incorporate Blackboard at at least some basic level.
< Linda> Welcome, Miri.
< selia> Linda - the same is true at my college - about using BB institution wide
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< Linda> I'd actually like to ask everyone about their experiences with international students...
< Lesley> Yes. But I'm interested in how one would employ it in a f2f context.
< Lesley> Sorry, crossed thread!
< selia> My classes are F2F
< Lesley> Please ignore.
< Linda> Any issues you've encountered in your courses and how you responded to them....
< Linda> No problem Lesley....
< selia> and I use BB as well
< Linda> We use BB mainly for information sharing.
< Linda> At this stage, it's very basic - posting notices, extra info, practice exercises, etc.
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< Linda> Hi, Marie!
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< Linda> 'Kay - bye, Marie! *g*
< selia> our student population is quite diverse - we have a number of students who sepak Englis as a 2nd language
< selia> speak
< Linda> I'm hoping to be able to put a fairly extensive series of ESL grammar reviews on BB next semester.
< Linda> And are they mainly in courses with native speakers, Selia?
< selia> I presented yesterday on a program we used last fall that is especailly to help students with English
< Linda> Is this Webheads?
< selia> The program I teach in is Marketing and eBusiness
< Linda> What's the program like?
< selia> The course where we used computer assisted English support was called COmputer Applicatins for Presentations
< selia> I'd like to have it on all of the computers in all of our labs
< selia> Students could also download Babylon to get translations from their native language
< Linda> Did it help your students integrate themselves into the course, or was it primarily language support?
< selia> It was primarily language support - what helps regarding integration into the course is their ability to choose the topics for their porjects
< selia> many of them choose to do projects that reflect their place of origin
< Linda> I see.
< Lesley> Do any of your students have orientatoin before arrival, selia?#
< selia> The orientation comes after arrival as far as I know.
< Linda> Just like us.
< Lesley> I was talking to Linda earlier about some institutions that have websites designed by international students in situ especially for incoming students.
< selia> We have agreements with a number of institutions in other countries however so I assume students come to us through those channels as well
< Linda> What kinds of false expectations do you find your students have that could be remedied by such a website?
< selia> Our students designed the website with the idea in mind to appeal to prospective students from around the globe
< Lesley> Another thing I've heard of is students who've been to the host institution talkng to students from their home instituitons about what they found good/bad about the expeireince
< selia> We entertain visitors frequently teachers who back and tell students about us
< Linda> We've recently begun to maintain an alumni webpage for our international students - trying to keep them in touch with the school once they've returned home.
< Lesley> Linda, can students who are coming to you visit the alumni website?
< selia> We have an international student centre on campus and students also form their own clubs based on their culture
< Linda> The hope is they'll let people know at home about our school here.
< Linda> It's not nearly as well-publicized as it should be. They could visit if they know it's there.
< Lesley> Mhm.
< Linda> Are those virtual clubs or f2f, selia?
< selia> FrF
< Linda> What do you think the largest issues facing international students in an online environment are?
< selia> But at times I think MSM acts as a club - many of them use it for chat
< Lesley> That's interesting. What language do they chat in?
< selia> being inhibited by their use of the language - if they are chatting with someone else who is also ESL they don't worry about it
< Linda> *nod*
< selia> they chat in English
< Lesley> And do they know whether their interlocutors are native or non-native speakers?
< selia> and they tend to use lots of chatroom short cuts and jargon
< Lesley> but doesn't that suggest that they've taken on *that* culture (to some extent) at least?
< selia> they chat with their buddies mostly
< selia> yes - it does
< Linda> The question came up yesterday about whether using chat shortcuts is good or bad for ESL students....
< Linda> How much of it spills over into their "regular" writing.
< Lesley> Well, I'd say that it's neither good nor bad, simply different. We all have to learn about different registers.
< selia> I am not sure it is any worse than all of the punning that goes on in magazine article titles, and names of cafes and clever advertisements
< Lesley> And a lot of native speakers use inappropriate register in speaking and in writing.
< Linda> Too true.
< Lesley> Isn't what's important knowing what to use, when and why?
< Linda> And it's often the most difficult thing to figure out for a non-native speaker.
< Linda> We constantly tell our students to listen to what's being said around them, but they often don't have a clear context within which to put all that they hear.
< Lesley> But it can certainly develop negotiation strategies and encourage people to *ask*
< selia> I always suggest to my non-native English students that they partner up with a native English speaker to help them proofread their assignments - spellcheck won't catch syntax problems
< Lesley> selia, do you find native speakers can actually do that?
< selia> It's not perfect but it's closer than without
< Lesley> my experience is that most of the native speakers I come across can't write in English
< Linda> Do they make use of some sort of writing center for help?
< Linda> I know what you mean, Lesley!
< selia> I mark all errors though I don't count off for them and I advise those with many to go for extra tutoring at the leanring centre
< Lesley> That must take you ages, selia!
< selia> I'm a afast reader
< Lesley> How many students do you have?
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< Linda> I've found it helpful to identify grammar errors by type (agreement problem, etc) and have the students self-correct.
< selia> probably one of the reasons why I make so many typos in Chat (grin)
< Linda> Hi, Carole
< CaroleM> Hello Linda and everyone
< Lesley> Hello Carole
< selia> Lesley, I have 125-150
< Linda> Carole, we were just talking about ESL students and their writing.
< CaroleM> I've just been to reserve my seat for the HorizonLive webcast and thought I'd see what you're up to in here.
< Linda> Students?
< selia> yes students
< Lesley> Linda, I think that's a good strategy. It's what I always advise when working on tutor training. Also numbering frequently-occurring errors and writing a short comment at the end.
< Linda> This is partly why I'd like to get good grammar reviews online.
< Lesley> selia do you teach them all personally or is there a team?
< selia> Personally - my classes are 35-40 and I have 4 sections at the collge and 20 online at the University
< Linda> We spend too much time going over grammar errors during class time - these are things that students should be able to quiz themselves on.
< selia> the ones at the University are graduate students
< Linda> Do you find big differences between the grad students and the others?
< selia> IN some respects - my grad students are mostly teachers working on MEds and PhDs part time
< selia> My students at the college are that diverse crowd I spoke about - 1st and 2nd semester marketing students
< Linda> Does one crowd seem to do better with the international students than the other?
< selia> My grad students are much less diverse - but they may be teaching in settings where their students are ESL - this term I have one in Saudi Arabia, one in Mexico, two are working with Inuit in the far north
< Linda> I see....
< Linda> And they're also ESL themselves, right?
< selia> At the college, I can say that my Asian students tend to be the most inclined to technical aptitude, the south americans have lots lof energy and entusiasm, the eastern Europeans and Russians have yet another style
< Linda> "Yet another style" - I like how you put that! *g*
< selia> The grad students do not tend to be ESL - the college students are probably more than 50 per cent these days
< Lesley> Linda, may I ask you something about your paper - I'm just revisiting your abstract.
< Linda> Yes....
< Lesley> You mention "instructors who have not had extensive experience in dealing with an international student body ..."
< Lesley> This would be on non-ESL courses?
< Lesley> I mean mainstream academic courses such as Marketing or Engineering or whatever?
< Lesley> Or have I misunderstood?
< Linda> No, I think you have the right idea.
< CaroleM> thanks gotta go, see you
< Linda> ESL teachers by definition are used to an international population, but instructors who teach mainstream subjects aren't always.
< Linda> Thanks, Carole.
< Lesley> So, their websites would be aimed at the general student body rather than specifically ESL?
< selia> Thanks, Linda - I am leaving now - thanks for the discussion
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< Linda> Thanks, selia.
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< Linda> Their courses would be aimed at the whole student population, ESL and non.
< Linda> Often I find non-
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< Lesley> So, how would you deal with producing a website that's appropriate for both types of audience?
< Linda> whoops - non ESL instructors who aren't sure what to do when they encounter some very typical situations with ESL students just because it's an unfamiliar population.
< Linda> I think by keeping in mind some of the issues like language ability and what both native and non-native speakers can understand (substituting common phrasal verbs for "single-word" verbs, for example).
< Linda> It looks like we're just about out of time.
< Linda> Lesley, thanks for being here - interesting talking to you.
< Lesley> Yes, we seem to be. Are you off to the webcast?
< Lesley> And you, too, Linda. Thank you. I found your paper very interesting.
< Linda> Jess, I'm not sure if you're here for this chat or for the next one, but thanks for dropping in.
< Linda> I'm going to try and get into the webcast now. You, too?
< Jess> Thanks I'm here for the next
< Lesley> I'm already there. There are several Lindas already logged in!
< Linda> LOL
< Linda> See you, Lesley.
< Lesley> Thanks for an interesting discussion. Bye.
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