Comfort, Confidence, and Confidentiality: The Experiences of Two e-Learners

Margaret Freeman and Barbara Allan

April 24, 2003, 1800 GMT

+ Barbara has arrived.
+ Bernie has arrived.
< Barbara> Hi Bernie
< Bernie> hi Barbara I'm waiting for the live presentation
< Bernie> I have a sister named Barbara
< Barbara> Is that with Margaret and myself?
< Bernie> I always find her name difficult to type correctly--keep wanting to put an extra 'a' in there :)
< Barbara> Lots of people get my name wrong;-)
< Bernie> barabara (*giggle*)
+ vinnie has arrived.
< Barbara> ;-)
< Bernie> she's one of six sisters I have
< Barbara> Hello Vinnie
< Bernie> hey vinnie :)
< vinnie> aloha
< Barbara> How are you finding the conference?
< Bernie> oh it just occurs to me--this is the keynote discussion room, tight?
< Bernie> I'm enjoying it, B
< Bernie> goes so quick though
< vinnie> love it, my 7th--gave my first kedynote Tuesday
< Bernie> very convenient to be able to do it from wherever one has access to aocmputer
< Barbara> yes - I'm currently in Dublin for a few days
< Bernie> my 3rd TCC
< Bernie> ah, Dublin--Ireland, I take it?
< Barbara> an 'old' hand ! It's my 1st
< Barbara> Yes - Dublin Ireland
< Bernie> gotta start somewhere
< vinnie> but everything is available for months
< Bernie> I'm from Birmingham, England
< vinnie> love dublin--I am on Maui
< Bernie> lucky you, Vinnie
< Barbara> Nods
< vinnie> I will be visiting both Ireland and England this summer hopefully
< Bernie> I've never been to Dublin or Maui
< Bernie> show off, Vinnie :)
< vinnie> so get on a plane and visit!!
< Barbara> Dublin is great - v friendly
< Bernie> flights are cheap these days, though
< Bernie> oh yes, Dublin--and you have the Liffey water there
< vinnie> hope dublin keeps it charm--no skyscrapers
< Bernie> which they cast a spell on and trun into Guinness!!!!
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+ vinnie has arrived.
< Barbara> Yes - sadly lots of building is going on
< vinnie> its all in the head I am told by the Guiness people
< Bernie> lol
< Bernie> love that Guinness
< Barbara> ;-)
< Bernie> I'm in the States, btw
< Bernie> Pennsylvania
< vinnie> I am 1/3 irish--Galway
< Bernie> very Irish in these parts
< Bernie> the Molly McGuires populated it all on their own
< Bernie> ah, Galway
< Barbara> Galway is great. I';ve always wanted to go to USA/Pennsylvania
< Bernie> Cladagh
< Bernie> the Cladagh ring
< Bernie> (*sigh*)
< Barbara> nods sympathetically!!
< vinnie> Greatgramdmother was a Kirby and then a Ryan(my middle name)
< Bernie> well, there's a home from home here for you when you come by, Barbara
+ Lesley has arrived.
< Barbara> Thanks ;-)
< Barbara> Hi Lesley
< vinnie> aloha lesley
< Lesley> Hi Barbara
< Bernie> my wife's Italian
+ kn has arrived.
< Bernie> great cook--so you can count on good food
< Barbara> Hello Kn
< Bernie> hi kn, lesley
< Barbara> Thanks
< vinnie> I am Irish, greek, italian and spanish!!! go figure
< Barbara> I'm impressed
<Bernie> Vinnie, you're a mutt--end of stry
< vinnie> so what do you all do witht distance?
< Bernie> moi? hybrid courses
< Bernie> all of them
< vinnie> in hawaii we say I am chop suey or poi dog
< Bernie> ah sooooo...
< Barbara> Me - staff training, supporting students
< Bernie> we faculty need training, too, Barbara
< vinnie> if ya get a chance listen in to my keynote:: Greens/Yellows/Reds--did it with my boss
< Barbara> Yes - its ssometimes a challenge!
< Bernie> you at a college, B?
< Barbara> Hull Unversity
< Bernie> will do, vinnie
< Bernie> thbought you said you were in Dublin?
< vinnie> Where is HULL?
< Lesley> I'm involved with staff training, course design, research in ed tech.
< Bernie> just visiting?
< Barbara> Just visiting Dublin! Holiday
< Bernie> Hull is in Yorkshire, England, v
< Barbara> L - sounds interesting
+ joy has arrived.
< Lesley> I'm at the OU, Barbara.
< Bernie> hey joy, you with the conference organizers Joy?
< vinnie> Bono has a hotel in Dublin on the river
< Barbara> I worked with the OU - T171 tutor
< Bernie> OU--Open University?
< Lesley> I thought I recognised your name.
< Barbara> Yes
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< vinnie> OU is wondeful--I want to visit their campus
< Barbara> I've never visited their campus
< Bernie> I once taught in Yorkshire--Market Weighton
< Lesley> You won't find any students there, Vinnie.
< Barbara> I live 3 miles from MW!
< vinnie> I know--lots of designers etc
< Bernie> oh my!!!!
< Bernie> Barbara!
< Barbara> It's a small world!
< vinnie> the US OU collaboraton did not work unfortunately
< Bernie> you must know the Approved School there--if it's still there, that is
< Bernie> for delinquents
< Bernie> juveniles
< Barbara> B - its been knocked down
< Lesley> I don't think they're called Approved Schools these days...
< Bernie> oh my--well that's not a bad thbing
< Bernie> ok, ok, lesley, so I'm giving away my age here!!!
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< Bernie> taught there in the mid 70s
+ Barbara has arrived.
< Bernie> welcome back B :)
< Barbara> I'm back!
< vinnie> aloha barbara
< Bernie> so we see :)
< Bernie> what was that all about
< Lesley> Barbara, I found your paper very interesting.
< Barbara> Iwas looking for Margaret - we wrote the paper together
< Barbara> Thanks L
< Bernie> did you see what I said up there, B--that I taubght in MW in the mid-70s
< vinnie> is this old home week?
< Barbara> B - it's now a green field!
< Bernie> which is your paper, Barbara?
< Barbara> The paper with M was based on our experiences of bing students
< Barbara> on the MEd at Sehfffield U.
< Bernie> what's your last name, B?
< Barbara> Allan
< Lesley> That's the David McConnell one, isn't it, Barbara?
< Bernie> ok, I'll check it out
< Barbara> Yes L
< Bernie> good heavens, it just occursto me that Barbara Allen is the name in a famous folk song :)
< Barbara> Oh noooo (;-)) she came to a sad end
+ Joanne has arrived.
< Bernie> giggle--yes....
< Barbara> Hi Joanne
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< Bernie> I'm hearing it in my head right now :)
< Bernie> who's leading our discussion here?
< Bernie> I tink I'm going to duck out to the live session
< Barbara> I am (with M when she arrives)
< Bernie> later, guys :)
< Barbara> L - any comments about the paper. By B
< Bernie> Oh Barabara--sorry, I'll stay then
< Bernie> let me check out your paper
< Barbara> Yes - it's comfort, confidence, cofnidentiality
< vinnie> title?
< Barbara> Comfort, confidence, confidentiality .... student experience
+ Deb_S has arrived.
< Barbara> Hello Deb
< vinnie> will check it out
< Deb_S> Hi, Barbara.
< Barbara> We are just getting going
< Lesley> I was wondering a bit about the asynch nature of the 'community' - I work with synch text and/or voice, and I find asynch difficult, though I've done it as student and tutor. Can you say something about your experiences?
< Deb_S> I'm trying to quickly read the paper.
+ Margaret has arrived.
< Barbara> Hi Margaret
+ Joanne has arrived.
< Barbara> The asynch side of the MEd ...
< Lesley> You mentioned the 'syncopated' nature of comms to start with. Could you develop on that a bit?
< Barbara> it worked really well - fitted in with other activities
< Margaret> Hi : Sorry I'm so late
- vinnie just left.
< Barbara> No problem. Wr are just getting going
< Barbara> Hi Joanne
+ ISG has arrived.
< Barbara> Hi ISg
< Joanne> Hi Barbara
< Margaret> Can I say something about 'syncopated/?
< Barbara> Do
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< Bernie> listening... :)
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< Barbara> M do you want to go ahead?
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< Lesley> Can I also ask a question about the need for policy formation you mention - that seems to me really important. This is just something I'd really like to hear more about if possible.
< Bernie> Margaret must be having difficulties of some kind
< Barbara> Yes. The main pont about policy was to cover issues such as confidentiality
< Barbara> We felt that it was v important that all messages kept confidential and only used for research...
< Lesley> That's something I experienced as a student on a course a long time ago.
< Barbara> if we had given 'informed' cosnent
< Lesley> Did you try to develop social policies yourself - eg how to deal with inappropriate messages/comments?
< Lesley> Or did you feel you needed those to be stated by the tutors?
< Barbara> It wasn't really discussed - I think there was a consensus on what was ok - we felt it could have been discussed more expliocityl at the start of the course
< Lesley> mhm
< Barbara> Yes - it needs even more careful handling than with f2f courses!
< Lesley> do you have any advice?
< Bernie> have you found this to be an issue, Lesley?
< Barbara> I think for tutors to raise the issue and then discuss it and agree as a group
< Bernie> students using inappropriate language online?
< Lesley> sorry - phonecall. The joys of virutal conferencing!
< Bernie> I thought I read somewhere that this tended not to happen because everyone knew what they said was being recorded?
< Barbara> It's quite a challenge
< Barbara> B - My experience is that students sometimes forget about the recording bit also they may go in as anonymous people!
< Deb_S> I've had more problems with students getting too emotional in chat.
< Barbara> How did you tackle it D?
- Margaret just left.
< Joanne> Emotional such as angry?
< Deb_S> Yes.
< Deb_S> I have been fortunate that I have been able to diffuse the anger
< Barbara> How did you manage that D?
< Deb_S> I try to explain the educational lesson surrounding the issue and thus sidestepping it.
+ margaret has arrived.
< Barbara> Sounds like a useful strategy
< Barbara> Hi M
< Deb_S> One student was on the police force and we were working on an exercise that involved police and courts 'selecting the criminal'
< Deb_S> The content was not the lesson.
< margaret> Hi again. I giot cut off!
< Barbara> Sorry - it sounds as if you are still haveing IT probs
< margaret> Yes. Sorry. How's it going?
< Barbara> D - it is soemtimes difficult for students to separate content and process
< Barbara> M - we are talking about tricky situaitons e.g. emotional ones
< margaret> Aha!
< Deb_S> Yes, and they shut down when they become emotional.
< Barbara> Or switch off!
< margaret> How have others dealt with this?
< Deb_S> yes, that's probably a better description, Barbara.
< Joanne> I've had students working in a group really lash out at a member of the group they viewed as not doing their part of the workload.
< margaret> We found our peers had lots of different ways of dealing with this
< Joanne> What did they do?
< Deb_S> I have had other students try to help diffuse a student.
< margaret> Well,one way was just to keep asking where 'x' was!
< margaret> We also tended to alert each other aout whwre we would be- n advance
< Barbara> that really helped
< Barbara> Any other strategies?
< margaret> How did people diffuse other students?
< Deb_S> My student was trying to help explain the problem.
< Joanne> I've seen students go out for a "virtual beer" and an instant message chat privately, and come back to everything smoothed out.
< Barbara> J - nice idea - I might use that in future
< margaret> Yes! we found that the pu helped a lot
< Deb_S> ...and told the upset student that is wasn't really a big deal.
< margaret> sorry 'pub'
< Deb_S> That's really an interesting idea.
< Deb_S> So you have different rooms with different kinds of atmosphere?
< Deb_S> ...for different purposes?
< Joanne> It got kind of funny, so that by the end of the class, students were exchanging all these pictures of beers with each other. :) Changed the whole focus of things.
< margaret> WE had just one place...but some of us used it more than others
< margaret> and some of us used emailfor the virual beer
< Deb_S> Did you use it for other purposes besides time-out?
< Barbara> One problem we experienced with the pub was that some people never used it - possibley for cultural reasons - its potentially divisieve
< Barbara> It was good for exchanging tips e.g. how to help babies sleep
< margaret> It helped somepeople 'glue' but for others, it was a barrier...maybe we got clique-y
< Barbara> nods
< Bernie> this is a fascinating discussion guys
< Bernie> listening....
< margaret> Bernie=WHY?
< Barbara> Have others used social areas - cafe pub whatever?
< Bernie> well, because I never thought of these issues--and how you're dealing with them
< Bernie> never taught fully online, or used chat with students
< Deb_S> I have study rooms in our MOO for students to meet on their own.
< margaret> This was a really important issue for us...the 'pub' was a strong bonding mechanism, I think
< Deb_S> I added pictures of comfy sofas and chairs.
< Barbara> How well do they use the rooms Deb? I like the idea of a sofa...
< Deb_S> Some of them did for an assignment
< Deb_S> But I don't think that the community bonding develops sufficiently for more use.
< margaret> I have a feeling that younger students, more used to texting and chat, will use the social space more
< Deb_S> That's what I'm most interested in learning about during this conference so that I can foster more community in the online class.
< Bernie> yes, younger students--can you imagine how this is going to affect how education is done 10 years down the road!!!?
< Bernie> I think I'm going to stick around to find out!
< Deb_S> Bernie, that's a really good point. Our students will be really different 10 years from now.
< Barbara> Yes - we are all learning so much about it. How are you going about developing community D?
< margaret> One of our tutors was an great faciltator...He got us all chatting..and the idea stuck with us!
< Bernie> I'm nearly 60, btw--so this is quite something for me
< Barbara> M - perhaps we just are chatty types? ;-)
< Deb_S> Barbara, I need to give up some of my control in the chat rooms.
< Bernie> being chatty sure helps
< margaret> Barbara has a secret theory that we all got bonding because we were 70s children!
< Deb_S> I plan to assign students to meet together without me more.
< Barbara> M - you've given away the secret!!!
< Bernie> but that's why you need a good facilitator, as Margaret said :)
< Bernie> lol
< Bernie> now I don't feel QUITE so old! (*duck*)
< Barbara> it's a real balancing act betwen presence/absence as an online tutor!
< Deb_S> Perhaps, jointly complete some of the assignments they are working on by themselves and then we are currently discussing as a group afterwards.
< Bernie> I like that Barabara
< margaret> Yes, a facilitator satrted us off, but we learned how to get on without him!
< Barbara> Nice idea D
< Barbara> Yes, he was a brilliant role model
< Bernie> like my own quote about education: that it's a balancing act between teaching and learning
< Bernie> the more the teacher can stay out of the way the better
< Barbara> nice quote
< Bernie> same with chat, I guess?
< Barbara> yes I agree
< Barbara> What do you think Lesley?
< Bernie> reminds us of Constructivism and the need for peripheral assistance wile learning for ourselves
< Deb_S> That leads me to another question...
< Bernie> while....
< Barbara> nods
< Deb_S> You mentioned in your paper about the question 'how much do people need to know about each other'. That issue has troubled me but I haven't really dealt with it yet.
< Deb_S> I don't have the students reveal much to each other.
< Bernie> hmmmmm.... fascinating again...
< Deb_S> Is that right or wrong?
< Barbara> We all seemed to use different approaches to getting to know each other - lots of sharing (by some of us) in the pub
< Barbara> I suspect there is an age thing here! We were the 'oldies'
< Bernie> I'm sure folks will share to the degree they feel comfortable with each other
< margaret> I don't know if there's one answer...people choose how much to disclose
< Deb_S> On one hand I think that physical characteristics are not relevant
< Bernie> just like regular social intercourse
< Deb_S> But then I think students like to share those facts.
< Bernie> right, that can be the beauty of online chat--who cares what the other person looks like
< Barbara> I agree
< margaret> me too
< Bernie> we can always share pictures if we want, right?
< margaret> ut waht they THINK
< Bernie> like Margaret and Barbara have done for their paper
< Deb_S> That's my question, do we want to?
< Deb_S> Or do we just tell the students that they can if they want?
< Bernie> yes and no--imho--should be optional
< Barbara> I'm v ambivalent about sharing pictures - I'm aware that some people like it
< Bernie> there you go, Deb--I agree with that
< Bernie> like I have my students create web pages and I tell them they can put pix of themselves on the home page--but they don't have to
< margaret> Barbara: are you playing again?
< Deb_S> I have a place for students to make web pages but I don't even tell them about it. Occasionally someone will and let everyone know.
< Bernie> in joke?
< Bernie> that was to M and B
< Barbara> Yes - I began to see if the whisper worked! It did!
< Bernie> it occurs to me, that M&B has a double meaning for M and B :)
< Barbara> When I first met M 'in the flesh' - I told her I was my twin sister!
< margaret> Yes. barbara has a tendency to play around...It makes me laugh and that was (the laughing) a great part of our group bonding.
< margaret> She can't sit still for long!
< Bernie> lol
< Barbara> We had 100s of bad hedgehog jokes
< Bernie> oh that's good
< Deb_S> I have another question about the pub. How do you introduce the space to your students?
< Barbara> The jokes were an improtant part of the course ;-)
< margaret> We found out, when we had our graduation ceremnony (and met others F2F) that people who had not chatted had laughed at our jokes
< Barbara> The tutors just told us the space was there and that they would pop in at times
< Barbara> Some of us immediately took up residence!
< Deb_S> When and where did they tell you?
< Deb_S> I'm just trying to figure out how it was integrated into the course.
< Barbara> In the main discussion area (asynch) in about week 1/2 of the course
< Bernie> I tell you what, I've always used humor to whatever extent I could--and that's for 37 years in the classroom
< margaret> The pub was started off by Jim, an Irish student who told tall stories..and invited us to join in
< Bernie> not that I'm a comic, but I've always felt a respoonsibility to make learning fun
< Barbara> I'd forgotten that. Thanks M
< Barbara> Laughter does help make learnign easier
< Bernie> oh those Irish and their Tall Stories (*lol*)
< margaret> It was left to us - and one tutor in particular- to chat in there
< Bernie> God bless the Blarney Stone
< Bernie> do you plan on visiting it, Barbara?
< margaret> We just used it as a place to let our hair down
< Barbara> Yes. My hotel in Dublin is 5 minute walk from the Guiness Brewery!
< margaret> Not the Blarney Stone!
< Bernie> lol
< Barbara> Sadly ahven't got time!
< Bernie> you guys......
< Bernie> you kill me!!!!!
< margaret> WE nearly did each other in as well. At times, the laughter overtook reallife!
< Bernie> giggle
< Barbara> lol
< Barbara> Shall we move onto a more serious topic;-)
< margaret> We also stunned the course tutors by generating over 1000 messages in 4 weeks
< Barbara> This was all work you udnerstand - nothing about hedgehogs!
< Bernie> I'm feeling like I missed something important by not taking your 2 year course in Collaborative Networked Learning!!!
< margaret> It WAS all work...the chat was a strong cement
< Barbara> Certainly the chat/jokes kept me going when I felt de-motivated
< Bernie> this IS serious, Barbara! Totally enlightening to me, at least
< Bernie> beautful way to do education!
< Barbara> And you can do it wearing pyjamas!
< margaret> On a more serious note (as babara insists), we also chatted a lot in our work groups
< Barbara> Some of us even wrote a paper for a conference (last Easter)
< margaret> By the time we were doing assignments, people worked really hard and had to do peer assessments...That's HARD WORK!
< Bernie> you should be publishing stuff--what you have to share is priceless
< margaret> WHICH BITS?
< Bernie> and I'm completely aware that this would be challenging work
< Barbara> Clever stuff for tutors to get students to do the assessment!
< Deb_S> Thanks, Barbara and Margaret for your presentation and answering questions. I have to run now.
< Barbara> Bye Deb. Great meeting YOu
< margaret> Cheers, Deb
< Deb_S> bye
- Deb_S just left.
< margaret> Bernie: tell me more about what you think we should publish?
< Bernie> well, your experience with the course (two years of it) gives you excellent credentials for sharing what you learned
< Barbara> Thanks.
< margaret> Yes, thanks
< Barbara> I'm going to have to go in a few mins. I'm in an Internet cafe in Dublin and am about to be pushed off machine
< Joanne> Thanks Barbara and Margaret! Great discussion! Hope you two stay in touch. :)
< Bernie> you could write about most everything you did in the context of online learning--how it's done, how it should be done
< Barbara> We're bonded for life!!!!!
+ Matt has arrived.
< margaret> Barbara: sorry about my late arrival...The pc went mad
< Joanne> laughs
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< Bernie> not a problem, Margaret
- Barbara just left.
< Joanne> Take care!
< Bernie> we know how primitive things are in the UK (*duck*)
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< Bernie> Margaret, I was telling Barbara how I have a sister named Barbara?
< margaret> Thanks for the feedback. It was a great experience doing the course and -apart fromthe connection failures on occasions...still good!
< Bernie> well... I alo have a sister named Margaret
< Bernie> so you guys are a team!
< Bernie> thanks so much
< margaret> Starnge coincidence!
< Bernie> well, I should tell you that I have 6 sisters
< Bernie> and we're catholic, so that kind of limits the choice of names (*lol*)
< margaret> Thanks for your comments. It's a wired thing, how the net links people...but maybe not to produce 7 siblings!
< Bernie> oh, I forbgot to tell you that I have 5 brothers, too (*lol*)
< margaret> Did you tell Babara about the Catholic connection?
< Bernie> nope--so you have to tell her, OK?
< margaret> Yep. She seems to breed guinea pigs a bot like that!
< Bernie> it's only when you came by that I realized how appropriate everything was
< Bernie> love your typos!!!!!
< margaret> I specialise in them!
< Bernie> you typed "wired" up there when you meant to type "weird"--but both versions work
< margaret> Yep
< Bernie> and now you're typing "bot when you meant to type "lot"--but "bot as in ""robot" works too
< Bernie> lol
< Bernie> guess we should move on here.... thanks Margaret :)
< margaret> Have tyou ever seen a UK TV series called 'alloallo?
< Bernie> bye for now :)
< Bernie> ok
< Bernie> i'll answer that
< margaret> Has verbal typos...in foreign accents!
< Bernie> nope--I've been out of the country (UK) since 1980, and I can't ever watching that
< margaret> Just like me
< margaret> Time to go...but thanks!
< Bernie> sounds excellent!
< Bernie> maybe it'll cross the pond some day
< Bernie> like "Are you being served"
< margaret> No better
< Bernie> which is my wife's absolutely FAVORITE show
< Bernie> ok, dear
< Bernie> bye for now--and thanks again
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< margaret> Bernie: You sound like 'one of us'...Nice to have met you
- margaret just left.

TCC 2003 Online Conference
Copyright © 2003 Kapi'olani Community College,
University of Hawaii, All rights reserved.