Student-Created Web Pages: On-CampusStudents Enjoy and Learn in a Hybrid Course

Eric Johnson

April 23, 2003, 1700 GMT

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< beverley> I work in Instructional Support and help faculty design their online courses...I do ID, training, and media development.
< Eric_Johnson> Cool.
< Eric_Johnson> My paper is about my students making web pages . . .
< Eric_Johnson> If my students were at your school, would you help them?
< beverley> I help support students taking online courses...typically not much interaction with f2f students.
< Eric_Johnson> Ah
< beverley> I have assisted students in building web pages that were assignments in their online courses.
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< Eric_Johnson> As you know from my paper, I require my on-campus students to make web pages ...
< beverley> I found that most students had very little prior experience and actually had great fears about building web pages.
< Eric_Johnson> I have taught online courses, but not required web pages.
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< Eric_Johnson> My university, Dakota State University, in Madison, SD, has a focus on computing ...
< beverley> Hi Selia
< Eric_Johnson> Hi selia.
< selia> hi beverley
< selia> Hi Eric
< Eric_Johnson> My students major in Computer Graphics, Computer Science, etc. ...
< Eric_Johnson> Thus they do not seem to need much (if any) assistance in making web pages.
< Eric_Johnson> Selia, we are not exactly started discussing my paper -- we are talking about students making web pages.
< selia> Students make web pages in most of my courses - and it varies from first timers to the more experienced grad student
< Eric_Johnson> Let me give a short summary of my paper --
< beverley> Seems like a natural fit for your students, Eric.
< Eric_Johnson> In (non-technical) courses such as English literature, I require students to make web pages rather than write research papers.
< Eric_Johnson> The web assignments have worked very, very well.
< Eric_Johnson> My students learn far more about literature than with the normal papers.
< Eric_Johnson> </End summary>
< selia> Please give an example
< beverley> Do those non-technical course students have resistance to building web pages?
< Eric_Johnson> A student who has read Browning's "My Last Duchess" might create a web page as if made by the Duchess
< beverley> That's a cool idea!
< Eric_Johnson> It would have soft, wonderful things to look at -- since that is the Duchess' character.
< selia> And are they encouraged to search the web for resources related to the period, the author, etc
< beverley> Sort of like a WebQuest???
< Eric_Johnson> A student read the Rime of the Ancient Mariner, and made his page from the standpoint of the wedding guest -- I was on my way, when that old guy insisted on talking to me.\
< selia> Do you give them guidelines regarding the web pages - word count, graphics, fonts, etc
< Eric_Johnson> Students do naturally search the web for period images and material, but I attempt to have them focus on the work of literature for clues about what to put on the page.
< selia> What editor do they use?
< Eric_Johnson> The only guidelines I give the students is that the focus of the page (and the grade) should be based on the work of literature itself
< Eric_Johnson> I want them to study the literature and make the page rather than fool with all kinds of fonts and frames, etc.
< selia> Do all students have accounts on the school server? Do they FTP their pages to the web?
< Eric_Johnson> Students may create web pages in any way they wish -- most use FrontPage (uug) and some Dreamweaver, but some code the tags in HTML
< selia> Do any use Netscape Composer?
< Eric_Johnson> All students here do have accounts on the university server and they can load the page as a link to their personal pages
< Eric_Johnson> Many students make the page, and demo it from a zip disk.
< selia> So when do they do personal pages? IN what course? What semester?
< Eric_Johnson> I have not known of a student using Netscape Composer -- I don't know why.
< Eric_Johnson> All students take Introduction to Computers, and they make a simple web page using FrontPage in that course.
< selia> Ours take a computer course first semester to learn the basics, file management, word proecessing and such
< Eric_Johnson> Students take Intro to Computers their first semester here.
< selia> The web page comes in second semester in Computer Applications for Presentations and they use Netscape Composer v 4.79
< Eric_Johnson> Regardless of how much new students think they know about computing, a course is a good idea.
< Eric_Johnson> Selia, I like the idea of students being taught to use Netscape Composer
< selia> They become familliar with a little HTML code too so they can troubleshoot their page code
< beverley> How long has your institution required a computing course?
< beverley> That's a good idea, too, Selia.
< selia> Problems are this - Netscape versions after 4.79 make it difficult with graphics and we are a little concerned that Netscape may discontinue supporting this older (better) version
< beverley> We often guide some of our students with Composer, as well.
< Eric_Johnson> I made a short page teaching students how to use NotePad to code HTML
< selia> I don't recommend Front Page - problems displaying in Netscape
< Eric_Johnson> Some students at once enjoy the control of coding HTML -- but most do not like to code it.
< selia> Dreamweaver has a steep learning curve
< selia> I'm hoping something will come along that is easier - like the old Netscape wizard and templates
< Eric_Johnson> On a technical writing list, a writer told of the problems he had with Front Page -- his conclusion was this: "Don't use Front Page -- It's evil!"
< selia> I don't want students to get too hung up on technical difficulties but spend their energy on the content
< beverley> I tell students and faculty that if they plan to develop web pages with any regularity, learn Dreamweaver. If not, use Composer.
< selia> And yet, FP (which is easy) is problematic - too bad!
< Eric_Johnson> We teach courses in web publishing in which students learn coding -- HTML XHTML, CSS, ETC.
< selia> I myself use Composer daily - it's just so easy and efficient
< Eric_Johnson> Some of the web publishing students take my lit course, and, of course they can do all kinds of sophisticated things.
< beverley> Eric, who do your students go to for support when building their web pages?
< Eric_Johnson> Bottom line -- in my lit course, students should focus on the literature -- figure out how to make the page without being distracted by the method of creation.
< selia> I find it is sometimes difficult not to be swayed by greater expertise -
< selia> That is, when a page looks fantastic, it is like a book with a dazzling cover - it is simply more attractive
< Eric_Johnson> Beverley, the students who have problems often come to me (if it is my assignment).
< beverley> Does your campus IT department also support students with issues like this?
< Eric_Johnson> I tell students that I can help with coding HTML, but I can help little with Front Page.
< selia> We have a student help desk
< selia> it's located in the computer commons and is managed by students
< Eric_Johnson> Each computer lab has a lab assistant who can help students with things like making web pages
< Eric_Johnson> Selia, exactly what I was attempting to describe.
< Eric_Johnson> Student assistants can usually help students with web pages -- HTML or FrontPage
< beverley> Although your guidelines direct focus to content and not beauty, where do most of your students actually fall out in terms of the quality of the web page?
< Eric_Johnson> Probably because of the focus of my university, my students have little trouble making pages.
< Eric_Johnson> Most of my students create good pages -- they are designed well and have good content.
< beverley> And, do most of your students share their research web sites with the other students?
< Eric_Johnson> My guidelines simply attempt to urge the students to manage their time on the content not the font, color, etc.
< selia> I have a model and guidelines for the minimum basic requirements, a criteria sheet
< Eric_Johnson> My student give a demo and description of their web pages for me and the whole class.
< Eric_Johnson> Students seem very interested in what their fellow students have done.
< beverley> Do your students do peer evaluations on these projects?
< Eric_Johnson> Selia, I would like to see your Guidelines sheet
< selia> Mine do self and peer eveluations on the team web sites and team presentations
< Eric_Johnson> No, Beverley, I grade the pages. Frankly, I had not thought of peer evaluations. I will try that next time.
< Eric_Johnson> Self evaluation is another good idea.
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< Eric_Johnson> Grading of such projects is a whole topic itself.
< Eric_Johnson> I have never had a student complain that web pages required too much time, but perhaps some thought that.
< selia> Here's the URL for my site - click on professor then teaching to see my courses, the MRK223 and MRK610 both have webpage construction, at UT grad studies, team and final projects are also websites - here's my mian address http://astralsite.com
< selia> In the top table on 223 you'll see links to team web sites and to criteria, and links to portfolios and criteria
< selia> Do you have any of your student's work available for us to see?
< Eric_Johnson> Impressive web site -- I will look it over later.
< Eric_Johnson> My paper lists several student sites at the end.
< selia> Beverley - how about you - student work?
< Eric_Johnson> My students expressly give me permission to list their sites -- frankly, some students who did not give me permission had outstanding pages.
< beverley> I am not an instructor...I support our faculty in building/designing their online courses.
< selia> It's part of my course that student work is displayed - after all it's Marketing and eBusiness
< selia> In the grad course, I do ask permission to display projects
< beverley> Selia, great site. Thanks for sharing.
< selia> kn - how about you?
< Eric_Johnson> Selia, I see you used Monzilla
< selia> that's Netscape 4.79
< Eric_Johnson> kn, what kind of experience have you had with student web pages.
< selia> In the Netscape Composer tutorial in my Addenda you'll find a link directly to download it
< Eric_Johnson> Selia, I knew that.
< Eric_Johnson> On our campus we use both PCs and Macs. My students are often majoring in computer graphics and use the Macs most. What platform do your students use?
< selia> PC
< beverley> PCs, by a vast majority.
< selia> Rarely one of my online students will have a Mac
< Eric_Johnson> We were a PC only campus, but when we got the graphics major, we knew that students should have a background on both.
< beverley> Eric, do you require group projects that are web-based?
< Eric_Johnson> And, of course, the graphics FACULTY wanted to use Macs.
< Eric_Johnson> No, I have not had group projects in my courses.
< Eric_Johnson> In fact, I attempt to make sure that students have topics that do not overlap.
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< Eric_Johnson> I know that my practice runs counter to some current thinking, but I also know horror stories about the difficulty of grading group projects.
< Eric_Johnson> Beverly, you would argue that group projects would be a good idea?
< beverley> I do think that group projects are valuable. It depends on the scope of the course and the learning objectives.
< Eric_Johnson> kn, please jump in and comment or ask a question.
< beverley> Group projects promote teamwork...something that most people will need at some point in their careers.
< Eric_Johnson> I know that many value group projects -- for the reasons that you say.
< Eric_Johnson> I also know that some students will let others do their work and receive the same grade.
< beverley> While I agree that grading can sometimes be challenging, I think that is where self and peer evaluations can play a big role.
< beverley> From what I have seen, students can be brutally honest, especially when their own grade is on the line.
< Eric_Johnson> Back to my paper a moment. I argue that learning to make web pages (or learning more it) is a value itself. Do you agree?
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< Eric_Johnson> Hi, again, Selia.
< beverley> Yes, definitely. But I am a technical person and see a lot of value in knowing as much about technology as possible.
< selia> Hi - I slipped out to look at your paper and the examples
< Eric_Johnson> It is far more likely that our students will want to make web pages in the future than write scholarly articles.
< beverley> For example, on our campus the majority of our students have minimal technical skills.
< Eric_Johnson> Well, Selia, what did you think of my examples?
< selia> The third one caught my eye because it is more attractive. I noted that the layourt on the main page was similar for the three
< Eric_Johnson> There is something about making web pages (by any means) that is an immediate gratification and pleasure to students.
< Eric_Johnson> I should have waited and used examples from this, current, semester.\
< Eric_Johnson> The pages now are both better designed and have better content.
< Eric_Johnson> I do notice that if there has been a film of a literary work, students insist on using the images from the film
< selia> I have always the like the idea of students being able to see the work of previous students - to see if they can go one step further than the best
< Eric_Johnson> For example, Lord of the Rings.
< Eric_Johnson> Your idea of students building on other students work is probably a sound idea -- did you say that you did not always ask your (former) students if you may show their work?
< Eric_Johnson> I mean students' work.
< selia> I don't ask my college Marketing students - I do ask graduate students at the Universisty in the online course
< Eric_Johnson> I see.
< selia> With the marketing students, - their accounts are closed when they graduate so I only have the projects to show for a couple of years at most
< selia> If I want to show projects from the online courses, I may have to transfer the sites to my own account
< Eric_Johnson> By way of conclusion, I will say this . . .
< Eric_Johnson> I am delighted with how much more my students learn about literature by making web pages.
< Eric_Johnson> In addition, they learn something of value in making the pages.
< selia> it's an excellent idea - thanks for sharing it with us
< Eric_Johnson> Also, I very much enjoy viewing their pages.
< Eric_Johnson> I am surprised that some of my colleagues think that having students "fool around" with the web pages is not learning.
< beverley> Thanks! Some great ideas here. I will be sharing with some of our faculty.
< selia> I have the same flack form my faculty
< selia> it's those profs who think that learning can't be fun
< Eric_Johnson> Tell them to read my paper and shut up.
< beverley> Fooling around with web pages is how most webmasters got started!
< selia> right on! thanks again - bye for now
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< Eric_Johnson> Bye to all of you -- I have enjoyed this chat greatly
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