Through the Cyber Space Looking Glass:Reflections of an Online Instructor and Distance Learner

Jennifer Lagier

April 22, 2003, 1700 GMT

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< Barbara> Hi Jennifer
< Jennifer> Welcome to this discussion!
< Barbara> I've gotta run - so have fun.
< Jennifer> Please tell me a bit about who you are and what you teach.
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< kelli> hello Jennifer
< kelli> I'm one of the TCC staff
< kelli> I've logged your chat
< Jennifer> Great! I decided to log on a bit before my session actually starts to make sure I'm here to meet and greet participants.
< kelli> great
< Jennifer> Welcome to this discussion of drop-out rates and ways to motivate online learners.
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< Jennifer> Welcome, Ma!
< ma> hi there
< Jennifer> Could you introduce yourself and what you teach?
< ma> I'm an instructional designer at a higher education institution from South Africa
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< Jennifer> Have you designed online courses? Do you work with other instructors?
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< Jennifer> Welcome, Sandra! Could you introduce yourself?
< Jennifer> Welcome Lesley! Could you introduce yourself too?
< sandra> Yes, I am a professor at a community college here in Manchester CT
< ma> yes, I design online courses for the Arts Faculty (Psychology, Sociology, Social Work etc)
< Lesley> Sure. I'm a lecturer in language learnng & technology at the Open University in the UK
< Jennifer> Great! Do all of you have experience either teaching or taking online courses?
< Lesley> I have experience of both.
< ma> both :-)
< sandra> I am currently running an online internet class
< Jennifer> Wonderful! We're all on the same page. What problems have you encountered, if any, with attrition rates in your online classes?
< sandra> Your student dropout issues really interest me, I am having that problem for the first time in this class.
< ma> we have rather high drop-out rates, especially after the first year
< sandra> I fear that the students at this level (community college) are not ready for this environment
< Jennifer> Do you find students drop out in the first two to three weeks of class, or is it a more gradual attrition?
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< ma> but we teach hybrid mode, not purely online
< Lesley> Students don't necessarily check out their supporting websites before attending synchronous sessions.
< Jennifer> Welcome, Fran!
< Fran> Thanks.
< Lesley> And they may not turn up to all sessions, but don't drop out completely.
< Jennifer> Yes, I find many of my students simply lack the technical skills or self-discipline required to keep up with the assignments and weekly discussions. How about you?
< sandra> dropout is more towards the mid-semester range. I suspect it is when they realize that they can't keep up by logging in once in a awhile.
< Lesley> So it can be difficult to design learning events that take into account that someone may be at sessions 1 and 5, but not at 2, 3 or 4.
< Jennifer> Have any of you conducted surveys to ask your students what they find to be an obstacle to them continuing with the course?
< sandra> I have tried to stimulate that conversation and I usually hear from those that attend.
< Jennifer> Maybe a better question would be, do you discover students simply missing in action rather than those who contact you to say they cannot keep up or are having problems?
< sandra> That is the challenge, reconnecting with those who only appear sporadically.
< Jennifer> I agree. I try to send out e-mails to my vanishing students to see if I can determine the problem. Has anyone found another technique that seems to work?
< Lesley> Yes. Looking at your paper, we, too, have experienced commetns about lack of student interaction, lack of technological confidence (while they may be competent, they may not be confident), time manaagement difficulties, changes in schedule caused by pers
< sandra> I like that idea in the paper regarding in-person class meetings, I truly think that some learners are just lost and need help.
< Lesley> Sorry, that's a different thread!
< Lesley> One of the things we've done is to ensure that technical support is always available and doesn't interrupt the synchronous discussions as learners go to another 'room' to talk through those difficulties.
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< Jennifer> One of the participants in a previous chat suggested the need for an online orientation class prior to signing up for the actual class just to make sure students knew how to manage time and deal with technology.
< Lesley> Yes, we always do that, too.
< Jennifer> I've tried using interactive chat with my students, but the reason they take my class is that they cannot work with regular schedules. Have any of you used supplementary drop in labs as a way to cope with students having difficulties?
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< Lesley> Because of the nature of what we do, language learning/teaching, voice chat is essential, and it has to be synchronous.
< Jennifer> I agree. The methods we use certainly depend on the content we are teaching.
< sandra> Drop in labs are good, the only problem I see is the extra time you have to put in, sometime the course is consuming enough
< Lesley> The client is available 24/7, and students can arrange to meet outside scheduled sessions.
< Lesley> There's also a question of cost; if someone's available for 'drop-in', they have to be paid.
< Jennifer> Yes, I've had good luck with e-mail communication and threaded discussions to report problems or ask questions.
< Jennifer> Has anyone tried virtual office hours? Was this an effective way to interact with students?
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< Lesley> Again, it wouldn't be appropriate for our model, but I have heard people say that it works for them using different models
< Lesley> It's to do with managing learner expectations, isn't it? Colleagues working with asynch technologies have said that they're sometimes/often overwhelmed and so tell students they will receive responses between x and y times on a and b days.
< Jennifer> Do you think the main problem is poor time management skills on the part of the students or the inability to cope with the technology?
< Jennifer> Lesley, I do the same thing and have found it very effective.
< sandra> Yes, online office hours have not worked for me. Most of our students problems I would guess is immaturity and lack of time management. It is the "I'll do it later" syndrome...which never happens.
< Jennifer> Sandra, I agree!
< Jennifer> Do you think a preliminary course on how to take an online class and effectively manage time might be an answer?
< Lesley> Again, I think it would depend very much on the educational model and the type of learner
< sandra> Yes, however I am sure alot of students think they know it already.
< Jennifer> I try to discuss this during my preliminary orientation session, but have now redesigned my course content to include a module on how to take an online course and become a successful online learner.
< sandra> One thing I am thinking about for next time is getting personal email addresses and phone numbers up front. I think a call to them is effective to see what is happening.
< sandra> do you?
< Jennifer> €That's a great idea. I already follow up with e-mails, but perhaps a phone call would be even better. What about you, Lesley?
< sandra> Also, would you consider "instructor" permission to take an on-line class?
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< Jennifer> I communicate mostly by e-mail, but do phone students when necessary. I used to require instructor permission, but found I didn't know enough about the student at the preliminary stage to really make an accurate evaluation of their chances of succeeding.
< Lesley> sandra, I don't quite understand what you mean by "instructor" permission?
< Jennifer> Welcome, Chris!
< sandra> A student who wants to take your online class would have to meet you and get a signature.
< Chris> Thank you...will read quickly and catch up!
< Jennifer> Yes, that's what I used to do. What I needed to do was have them complete a learning styles inventory and really commit to participating throughout the semester. Maybe signing a contract?
< sandra> interesting thought.
< Lesley> sandra, do you mean meet face-to-face?
< sandra> yes, F2F
< Lesley> Ah, that wouldn't be possible for us in some cases.
< Lesley> Though a 'learning contract' is a very interesting idea.
< Jennifer> I try to encourage student discussion of what might become an obstacle to learning or participation and suggestions of ways to cope with these problems. A discussion board would work nicely for this. What do you think?
< Lesley> I think it's a good idea. Our students, however, tend to run self-help groups via FirstClass conferencing, which I suppose is the same idea in a different guise?
< sandra> I like it. Although I have discovered that a lot of my students do not know how to use the discussion board effectively. Maybe that pre-online class wouldn't be such a bad idea.
< Jennifer> A contract could actually make a nice instructional tool to define and discuss problem behaviors.
< Chris> Is FirstClass synchronous communication?
< Jennifer> I use the discussion groups in Blackboard for self-help and peer coaching. That has helped a bit.
< sandra> I think we are onto something here!
< Lesley> FirstClass is asynchronous conferencing, but it does have a text chat area - though I don't think many of our students use that.
< Jennifer> We could probably use the chat and discussion features in a variety of courseware packages to achieve the same goal.
< Lesley> One of the things that we've done is to have a course-related website that's regularly updated with news etc. We also provide learners wth important technical vocabulary items in the target language so that they can do their self-help in that language an
< Lesley> Oops, I found the limit for input... the final bit of that was 'and so get extra practice in using it'
< Jennifer> I've also used a web page where I've posted FAQs related to the class and various class assignments.
< Chris> A "free" area that can be used for open communication and community support can be achieved on many different platforms.
< Lesley> Jennifer, did you find your students consulted the web page much?
< sandra> yes, I have done that.
< Jennifer> Somewhat. They preferred the discussion forum format or one to one e-mail.
< Lesley> Did they say why, Jennifer?
< Chris> Discussion forums are easily archived for reference...
< Jennifer> I suspect it's because they didn't want to scroll down the web page and read all the extra content unrelated to their problem.
< sandra> Sometimes the student can get overwhelmed with course sites, web pages and email. On top of that can you imagine the unorganized student...whew!
< Jennifer> Chris, I agree. I can often use info from the discussion to rewrite my assignment and make it clearer.
< Lesley> What does anyone do about the ethics of recording discussions?
< Chris> And others can restate the same information to make it clearer.
< Jennifer> Sandra, you are so right! I'm currently redesigning my online content to pare it down and make it more relevant.
< sandra> I never thought about ethics
< Jennifer> Lesley, you bring up a good point. Anyone have any comments on this?
< Lesley> Jennifer, do you record your students' input? And, if so, do you ask for their permission or tell them it's happening?
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< Jennifer> My students know their input is recorded as it appears in the threaded discussions.
< Lesley> Has anyone ever objected?
< Chris> Good point. Perhaps an agreement should be reached that forums are not to be published outside the "learner" population.
< Jennifer> If I use their comments, as I did in my paper, I always ask their permission. Otherwise, I simply adopt their suggestions and revise explanations.
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< Chris> Are you referring to a research paper?
< Jennifer> Yes, the paper I submitted for this conference. I told my students what I was writing about and asked for their input.
< sandra> enter the contract!
< Jennifer> Sandra, you are so right!
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< Lesley> Jennifer, do you think asking them to contribute to the paper was a motivating factor?
< Jennifer> Perhaps. It also provoked a lively class discussion on obstacles to learning in an online environment.
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< Chris> Transformative learning...learning while doing.
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< Jennifer> We used the discussion topic as a way to brainstorm solutions. That's where we came up with the idea of peer review groups and online discussions to ask questions or report problems with assignments.
< sandra> Well, I have to go. I am running with the contract idea, I am going to use it in the Fall for a trial. What great discussion. Thanks.
< Jennifer> Thank you, Sandra!
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< Jennifer> We are discussing ways to cope with high attrition rates among online learners.
< Jennifer> Does anyone have other suggestions?
< Lesley> Jennifer, do you think attrition rates in online learners are higher than in 'traditional' distance learning?
< Jennifer> By traditional distance learning, do you mean video teleconferencing?
< Chris> Establishing a learning community so that learners have a responsibility to one another...not just to self.
< Lesley> No, I mean the sort of model we use which is much less hi-tech. Multiple modes including text, audio (CD/cassette), video (not conferencing), occasional face-to-face meetings....
< Jennifer> Chris, that's an excellent suggestion. Maybe other forms of distance learning naturally lend themselves to establishing this kind of a community.
< Jennifer> Lesley, do you think the face-to-face meetings help keep learners engaged more than the solitary portions of the learning experience?
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< Lesley> One of the things our learners have said about online learning is that they really like the fact that they get to 'meet' people they wouldn't meet otherwise
< Lesley> Jennifer, I'm not sure, to be honest. It depends so much on the learner. The f2f isn't compulsory except for one week residential schools
< Jennifer> It's interesting--that's exactly what my students say. Some are community college students and some are university students.
< Lesley> I feel as though online learning should actually be *more* motivating in many ways, because of the possibility of meeting people outside the immediate learning community...
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< Jennifer> Lesley, as an online learner myself, I found the cluster sessions I attended in person at Nova really helped me establish relationships with my instructors and fellow students.
< Lesley> ... but the attrition rate seems to be much the same as for courses without online components
< Lesley> I think that's what I meant about it depending on the learner, Jennifer. I felt I established better relationships with co-learners in the online environment than I ever did when I met them f2f.
< Jennifer> Yes, I agree. Perhaps the problem is lack of time management skills and self-motivation in all these areas.
< Lesley> And fear of technology, perhaps?
< Lesley> For older students at least?
< Jennifer> Yes!
< Jennifer> Interestingly enough, students with the most problems who perservered turned out to be my best students.
< Lesley> That's often the case in my experience too.
< Jennifer> Lesley, thank you so much for participating in this session. I think we came up with some good ideas.
< Lesley> Thank you, Jennifer. I thought your paper was very interesting.
< Jennifer> Thank you! Researching and writing it has helped me be a better online instructor, I believe.
< Lesley> That might well be the case, I suppose.
< Lesley> Certainly, reflection on our practice is very useful, isn't it?
< Jennifer> Do you have any final thoughts or comments you'd like to share?
< Lesley> Only that it's very comforting in many ways to find that people all over the world seem to experience the same challenges in online learning/teaching!
< Jennifer> You are so right! Again, thank you for participating in this session.
< Lesley> And that it's been very interesting to hear of others' experiences and of their suggested solutions.
< Lesley> Thank *you* Jennifer.
< Lesley> Have a good conference.
< Jennifer> I'm glad this chat has been logged. We'll be able to go back and garner these useful suggestions.
< Lesley> Exactly.
< Jennifer> Bye, Lesley! I'm off to work with one of my students now. In person!
< Lesley> Bye Jennifer.
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TCC 2003 Online Conference
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